squadron badge and motto

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Re: squadron badge and motto

Postby Kismet » 08 Jul 2016, 11:12

Spitfire Girl 1 wrote:
Frecks wrote:Yes that is another of Biggles' maxims - trying to get out of a situation even if it seems completely hopeless which is yet another of his strong points. Which of Bertie's sayings would make a good motto? Would Algy and Bertie's families have crests and mottos? If so I wonder what the Lacey or Lissie mottos would be?

Algy and Bertie would definitely have had crests and mottos - I wonder if Biggles would too, after all his family must have had some standing for his father to marry a daughter of an Earl (she would be an Honourable of course.) Or would he, because of his mother, be entitled to use the Lacey crest too?



I believe that there are lots of upper class families with no titles, who intermarry with those that do. I believe it is also possible for some members of a family to have a title whilst others don't, depending on what sort of title it is, so whilst I agree Biggles came from a family with a certain social standing, I don't think his family would have a motto.

We don't actually have any evidence that Biggles's mother was the daughter of an Earl. All we know is that Biggles acknowledges Algy to be a cousin and his mother an aunt, both terms which can cover specific or more general relationships, and that Algy is an Honourable, which could be the son of an Earl or of a Baron or Viscount. Given where Algy comes from and how little fuss WEJ makes of Algy's title compared with Bertie's. I've always tended to Algy being the son of a Baron or a Viscount.

I rather like the idea of Bertie having a family motto.
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Re: squadron badge and motto

Postby Fairblue » 08 Jul 2016, 12:08

Kismet wrote:
I rather like the idea of Bertie having a family motto.


Me, too. ;)
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Re: squadron badge and motto

Postby OzBiggles1963 » 08 Jul 2016, 12:21

Frecks wrote:I don't remember that quote OzB. Could we translate one of Bertie's little sayings into Latin?


Hmm: "Anyone got any shark's teeth?" Not WW2 vintage though, lol. ;)
They've been working together for so long that each seems to know by a sort of telepathy when another is in trouble. One never seems to get them together. Get one & the others come after him. To give the devil his due they make a formidable team.
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Re: squadron badge and motto

Postby Spitfire Girl 1 » 08 Jul 2016, 12:22

Kismet wrote:
We don't actually have any evidence that Biggles's mother was the daughter of an Earl. All we know is that Biggles acknowledges Algy to be a cousin and his mother an aunt, both terms which can cover specific or more general relationships, and that Algy is an Honourable, which could be the son of an Earl or of a Baron or Viscount.

:sorry2: wild extrapolation from canon there.
I think my brain's come over all Regency - must be reading about Tiff in Bath and thinking about Jane Austen and Georgette Heyer.
Aargh, I'm channelling Mrs Bennet... I need a quiet lie down on the chaise with a Biggles book.

Ok Bertie's motto and coat of arms go on this list. Get thinking folks!
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Re: squadron badge and motto

Postby tiffinata » 08 Jul 2016, 18:39

Tiff has spent the day in the Jane Austen centre.
Then afternoon tea in a tea room reading about Bath being bombed during ww2.
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Re: squadron badge and motto

Postby Spitfire666 » 09 Jul 2016, 15:25

Spitfire Girl 1 wrote:Well, I think I like whatever is the correct translation of 'Always a way', or the version FB's son came up with...
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam.. Translated, it means 'Either find a way or make one'.

It needs to be short, no longer than that or it will not fit on the badge scroll in letters we can actually read, which kind of defeats the object of the exercise!
'Find a way or make one' might be shorter.
Looking forward to hearing what your friend can suggest S666.
Thank them profusely for us!

My friend seems to agree with what Fairblue's son came up with. He said the literal translation of "aut viam inveniam aut faciam is "I will find a way or I will make one"; a free translation could be "where there's a will, there's a way".
Clearly, you can be quite free with this, and he says this is often the way ;) I think "Find a way or make one" is very Bigglesy.
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Re: squadron badge and motto

Postby Frecks » 09 Jul 2016, 15:43

That motto looks very good - would it fit on the bookmark?
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Re: squadron badge and motto

Postby Spitfire Girl 1 » 09 Jul 2016, 19:44

Spitfire666 wrote:
My friend seems to agree with what Fairblue's son came up with. He said the literal translation of "aut viam inveniam aut faciam is "I will find a way or I will make one"; a free translation could be "where there's a will, there's a way".
Clearly, you can be quite free with this, and he says this is often the way ;) I think "Find a way or make one" is very Bigglesy.

Thanks so much for the S666 - sorry I didn't respond earlier (spent all day at our Church's Craft exhibition with my beading, so consequently exhausted!) I agree, 'Find a way or make one' is a very Bigglesy motto (well done FB's son) - and I hope it's one we can all agree on.

Frecks wrote:That motto looks very good - would it fit on the bookmark?


Well Frecks, I think I better do my best to abide by it and make it fit on the bookmark!
Hopefully I will get something done this coming week. Watch this space...
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Re: squadron badge and motto

Postby Spitfire Girl 1 » 14 Jul 2016, 15:33

Well, here it is, with the correct Latin - the motto [I will] find a way or make one.
I have tidied up the image a bit and found a better image of the merlin.
I hope you like
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Re: squadron badge and motto

Postby Fairblue » 14 Jul 2016, 16:29

This is great! I think it's now perfect! You've put a lot for hard work into this, SG1.
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Re: squadron badge and motto

Postby Frecks » 14 Jul 2016, 16:47

That is absolutely wonderful. Just right - the image and the motto. Very well done.
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Re: squadron badge and motto

Postby Spitfire Girl 1 » 14 Jul 2016, 17:19

Fairblue wrote:This is great! I think it's now perfect! You've put a lot for hard work in your this, SG1.


Thanks FB, I've enjoyed it!
I liked the way we all worked together on the motto - yes it took a while, but it was worth it!
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The attachment SB3 heraldic quote details.jpg is no longer available
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Re: squadron badge and motto

Postby Tracer » 14 Jul 2016, 17:19

Superb! :claphappy: :yay:
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Re: squadron badge and motto

Postby Spitfire Girl 1 » 14 Jul 2016, 17:22

Or there are also the following... - do you want me to add pictures of these to the gallery?
Anything else people want?
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Re: squadron badge and motto

Postby Spitfire Girl 1 » 14 Jul 2016, 17:29

Ok, once more without the spelling mistakes (hopefully!)
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Re: squadron badge and motto

Postby Spitfire666 » 14 Jul 2016, 17:35

Wow, these are all superb :claphappy: You could put them all in the gallery so we can take our pick? So much imagination and hard work. :cheers2: :thumbsup2: :hellochap:
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Re: squadron badge and motto

Postby tiffinata » 14 Jul 2016, 18:16

Echoes S666.
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Re: squadron badge and motto

Postby Frecks » 14 Jul 2016, 18:34

They all look good.
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Re: squadron badge and motto

Postby kylie_koyote » 14 Jul 2016, 19:19

I love these very much. Well done. :salute:
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Re: squadron badge and motto

Postby Indian Civil Service » 15 Jul 2016, 07:38

Beautiful. As Biggles would say, "Great work!"
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Re: squadron badge and motto

Postby Babanango » 15 Jul 2016, 14:42

Spitfire Girl 1 wrote:It's a heraldry thing. Apparently you have to imagine yourself standing behind the shield with the coat of arms on. So right becomes left and left becomes right.
I think.
I didn't know that yesterday!
I'm still happy that I designed the badge with the bird facing this way though.
I think Biggles would understand my thinking better than that of the heraldic experts.
I hope.

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I love this badge. Just the right bird. A merlin is the smallest of the falcons, and we all know Biggles was "smallish", and of course there's the cant (another heraldic term) on the Merlin engine.

May I suggest, though, that the image be reversed to face to dexter? No offense intended to the lefties (my son and sister are lefties)! In heraldry, dexter is facing towards the foe and thus the direction of higher honor. Generally, a charge faces to dexter by default, unless there is a specific reason for it to face to the sinister. Sinister faces away from the foe, and there are various meanings given to sinister charges: a "gore sinister" denotes cowardice, a "bend sinister" denotes "bastardy", etc.

This is from the "Guide to Air Force Heraldry": "...the symbols depicting the organization's mission, history, or qualities face to the right side (dexter) never to the left side (sinister) of the bearer." Granted this is from the US Air Force and not the RAF, but the same general rule probably applies, as our military traditions derive much from British tradition. I found that a few RAF charges face to the left, but generally speaking that symbolizes something specific in heraldry.

Just a thought....
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Re: squadron badge and motto

Postby Spitfire Girl 1 » 15 Jul 2016, 17:26

I was waiting for someone to raise this... It's a fair comment - when I designed the badge I didn't realise that left and right in heraldry terms was from behind the badge. However, in the RAF squadron badges, the animals can face either left or right. Yes, left is more common, but right facing ones do occur, e.g. 96 squadron, I checked when I realised about the heraldry. The RAF badge itself has an eagle flying forward, but with head facing right.
I looked at the badge face on, and if you think of the points of the compass a left facing merlin would be going West, which has somewhat unfortunate connotations...
(To me it's just not as aesthetically pleasing going the other way.)
By the way, according to the RAF, their badge was not initially submitted to either the King or the college of heralds for approval! As the raf eagle is officially 'head lowered and to the sinister' I think that this can be too.
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Re: squadron badge and motto

Postby Frecks » 15 Jul 2016, 18:45

I think it is best left as it is. Apart from anything else it looks so good now it would be a shame to have to start altering it again.
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Re: squadron badge and motto

Postby Spitfire666 » 15 Jul 2016, 19:45

I understand what Babs is saying, but I like it facing sinister. Biggles would not do what everyone else does. Also, there is still a problem with left anything. A few years ago people in school still got walloped for being left handed and suffered into adulthood because of that. The badge would be from the War, and facing west would not be a good idea for that! Left is more appropriate.
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Re: squadron badge and motto

Postby Frecks » 16 Jul 2016, 08:10

Yes I agree with that. I am left handed myself and luckily I was allowed to write with my left hand at school.
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Re: squadron badge and motto

Postby Tracer » 16 Jul 2016, 10:47

Spitfire666 wrote:I understand what Babs is saying, but I like it facing sinister. Biggles would not do what everyone else does. Also, there is still a problem with left anything. A few years ago people in school still got walloped for being left handed and suffered into adulthood because of that. The badge would be from the War, and facing west would not be a good idea for that! Left is more appropriate.



Very true. My sister was punished constantly at school for being left-handed. You look back on it and wonder how people could be so petty and so bullying.
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Re: squadron badge and motto

Postby Fairblue » 16 Jul 2016, 11:03

I'm a leftie and I wasn't punished, thank goodness.
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Re: squadron badge and motto

Postby Frecks » 16 Jul 2016, 11:19

There seems to be quite a few left handed people about and their experiences at school seem to vary greatly. I do not think it matters now.
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Re: squadron badge and motto

Postby Kismet » 16 Jul 2016, 11:51

I'm the other way round. I was the only right hander in a family of left handers. I still iron left handed, use the kettle left handed and carry out a few other tasks back to front, but I became more right handed when I moved away from the parental home. I have one left handed child and two right handed.
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Re: squadron badge and motto

Postby Spitfire Girl 1 » 16 Jul 2016, 19:47

I am right handed, but semi ambidextrous due to RSI. Most of the badge was done using the computer mouse in my left hand...
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